A look at who the Summit League is losing

College sports graduates teams every year, players transfer, and teams are affected by that from year to year…duh.  Some top teams get worse because of what they are losing, and other teams get better with what they have coming back.

Here is who Summit League men’s basketball is losing this year, and the list is in order of what teams will be affected most by their losses.


South Dakota

It feels uncommon to see the team that finished 8th in a conference to be losing so many players.  Seems like these teams are typically youthful and at least have a lot to look forward to in the future as they develop their team.  South Dakota will graduate 4 players on scholarship and one walk on player; as well as lose three players to transfer.

The Yotes will have a new look with three transfers coming aboard, and could potentially have the deepest core of post players as most of their post players this season were freshmen and sophomores.

From 2014-2015 to 2015-2016, the Coyotes were losing the most scoring off their team at 57% and they fell from 4th in the conference to 8th.  Going into next season, they will again be the team that loses the most scoring at nearly 80 freaking percent of their scoring.

Graduates

Tre Burnette, 6’5″ guard/forward

Played in 32 games and started 23 in 2015-2016.  Averaged 13.2 points; 6.6 rebounds (4th in the Summit League), shot 44% from the field; 51% from the free throw line; and, 32% on threes.  Finished his senior season with 8 double-doubles.

Burnette played the 2, 3, and 4 for the Coyotes at different times.  His production and hustle will be missed by the Coyotes, but he could be being replaced by more efficient players.

Casey Kasperbauer, 6’1″ guard

Started in all 32 games for the Yotes in his senior season.  Averaged 12.1 points; 2.5 rebounds; 2.1 assists; and 1 steal per game.  Shot 41% from the field; 95% (led the Summit) from the free throw line; and 41% on threes.

Craig Smith once called Kasperbauer the best shooter that he had ever coached, and that will be missed by the Coyotes.  The transfer guards coming in for South Dakota appear to be slightly more versatile than Kasperbauer and be more productive over the 34 minutes a game that Kasperbauer was playing.

Trey Norris, 6’0″ guard

Played in all 32 games for the Yotes, and was moved into the starting rotation after Shy McClelland left the team, which was weird because Norris seemed to be the better point guard on the court for the team.  Ended the year averaging 7.5 points and 4.3 assists per game, but was averaging 12 points 5.4 assists in February and March.

Eric Robertson, 6’8″ forward/center

Started in all 32 games for South Dakota as a senior.  Not much of a rebounder for a big man averaging 3.2 per game.  Robertson scored 8.3 points per game on 47% from the floor.

I thought that Tyler Hagedorn or Dan Jech should have been playing more time than Robertson, and I may be more bias for Hagedorn being that he is from Nebraska, but both true freshmen seemed that they could have been more productive over Robertson.

Duol Mayot, 6’5″ guard/foward

Played in 17 games in his senior season as a walk on.

Departures

Dejon Davis, 6’4″ sophomore – Transferred to Indianapolis (D2)

Considered to be one of the most improved players in the Summit League after seeing his scoring go from 1.9 points per game in his freshman season to 9.3 as a sophomore.  Davis’ playing time was increased as well going from a seldom used guard his freshman season at 9.3 minutes per game to starting in 31 of 32 games in his sophomore season and averaging nearly 30 minutes per game.  He was 6th in the Summit League in field goal percentage shooting 55.1% from the field.  He was likely to see a reduction in minutes with Matt Mooney and Carlton Hurst becoming eligible, but Davis still would have been a contributor to the team.

Shy McClelland, 6’0″ junior – Left team in early February

McClelland averaged 11.5 points on 49% from the field in his time with South Dakota, but he shot 51% from the free throw line attempting over 4 free throws a game.  He was pretty inconsistent in his time on the team, but could have been a contributor to the Coyotes in 2016-2017.

Zach Dickerson, 6’4″ sophomore – Left team in early February

A transfer from Eastern Illinois that was not seeing much playing time for South Dakota, and probably was not going to see much of an increase in minutes in 2016-2017.


South Dakota State

The Jackrabbits are losing nearly half of their scoring, and they will working with a new head coach in 2016-2017.  Teams in the Summit League may not have the same fear that they’ve had going up against the Jackrabbits that they have had over the last few years.

Graduates

George Marshall, 6’0″ guard

Marshall ended the year struggling when it mattered most.  The Jacks had to survive through his 15% shooting in the conference tournament to move on to face Maryland in the big dance.  Marshall ended the regular season as a 1st Team All Summit League player with his 14.9 points per game, which was 10th in the league.

Marshall has potential to play basketball overseas or in the new NBLA.

Deondre Parks, 6’1″ guard

Parks played in 33 of the team’s 34 games and also averaged 14.9 points per game, and he was a good rebounder at his size with 4.6 per game.  He was shockingly pushed down to the Honorable Mention Team for the Summit after being named to the preseason 1st team.

Like his back court teammate, Parks also has potential to play basketball overseas or in the new NBLA.

Jake Bittle, 6’4″ guard

Bittle did not receive any post season awards after being named to the preseason 1st Team for the Summit League.  He was forced out and also played through some injuries, which may have led to some slightly inconsistent play for himself and the Jackrabbits.  Bittle led the Jackrabbits with 25 points in their win at Minnesota.

Losing Bittle as the guy to actually run the Jackrabbits offense is what could hurt the team the most.

Cory Jacobsen, 6’1″ guard

Never really saw much playing time as a walk on for the Coyotes.  Scored 2 points his senior season.

Departures

Connor Devine, 6’10” junior – Transferred to Alaska-Anchorage (D2)

Never truly broke into the rotation at South Dakota State playing behind a number of quality post players in three years.  Devine did average 2.6 points and 1.6 rebounds as a junior, and shot 64% from the field in 8 minutes per game.  Could have been potentially a starter or the 1st post player off the bench in 2016-2017 with the Jacks currently with a lack of big men.

Logan Doyle, 6’8″ sophomore – Transferred to Northern State (D2)

Basically the exact same situation as Devine.  Only played in 7 games as a sophomore, but could have been one of the first guys off the bench in 2016-2017.


Omaha

Graduating four contributors is really hard to make up in college basketball, but the Mavericks will get to reload some of their roster with transfers and players returning from injuries.  The Mavericks will also literally be blessed with a 6th year of eligibility to Kyler Erickson.

Graduates

Devin Patterson, 5’11” guard

Patterson was the fastest player in the league, and that speed is what kept the Mavericks in a few games and gave the team a few victories.  Making up 18 points per game (3rd in the Summit) will be difficult, making up for his speed and his ability to get to the free throw line with be more difficult to overcome.

Patterson has potential to play basketball overseas or in the NBLA.

Jake White, 6’8″ forward

Even though White seemed to constantly be in foul trouble, he finished his senior season 5th in scoring in the conference with 17.3 points per game; as well as 6th in the Summit in rebounding at 6.2 rebounds per game.  It is hard to find a big man like White that can score from anywhere on the court as well draw as many fouls as he did.  As much as White did commit fouls, he was also able to tie for 3rd in the Summit for free throws attempted per game behind Obi Emegano and Devin Patterson.  White also shot 81% from the free throw line as a senior, which was 2nd in the league among forwards.

White has potential to play basketball overseas or in the NBLA.

Randy Reed, 6’6″ forward

Reed may have only averaged 6 points and 3 rebounds per game in his senior season, but the energy and hustle that he brought off the bench for the Mavericks was priceless and will be incredibly difficult to replace.  His 21 points and 5 rebounds off the bench on senior night was one of the most fun performances by a Mav to watch in person since the Mavericks made the transition to division one.

Tim Smallwood, 6’2″ guard

Smallwood was a little inconsistent, but he was able to improve on his shooting from his junior season to his senior season.  As a junior he shot 26% on threes, and he ended up shooting 37% on threes in his senior season.  I personally thought Smallwood was an underrated one-on-one defender.

Departure

Devin Newsome, 5’9″ sophomore

This appears to be unofficial at the moment.  Per the Omaha World Herald, Newsome is looking for a school to transfer to, but there has not been an official statement from anyone.  Newsome was rarely used in his freshman and sophomore seasons, and was unlikely to see an increase in minutes with the guards expected to be on the 2016-2017 roster.


IPFW

Graduates

Max Landis, 6’2″ guard

The ‘Dons are losing the Summit League player of the year that averaged 10 points a game on just three point field goals.  This is not something that is just easy to make up, but it can be done with a few players taking over the load of scoring and shooting.  After Mo Evans was forced off the team in the second semester, Landis stepped up as a passer and averaged over 4 assists without Evans on the roster.  IPFW has Purdue transfer, Bryson Scott to help take over the scoring load but he shot 29% in his two years on threes at Purdue while Landis just shot 45.6% on threes as a senior, which was 30th in division one.

Landis has recently had workouts with the Indiana Pacers and has potential to play in the NBDL.

Joe Reed, 6’8″ forward

The ‘Dons may end up missing Joe Reed more than they think.  He averaged 10.5 points and nearly 5 rebounds a game, but he was always ready to take a clutch shot.  The ‘Dons loved their small ball style in 2015-2016, and Reed was perfect to play at the 5 for that style.  Their core of post players in 2016-2017 may not be the best players for that type of system the coaching staff seemed to fall in love with.

Michael Calder, 6’2″ guard

Calder was fantastic making up for the loss of Mo Evans in the second half of the season.  He was a bit of a one dimensional guard in his junior season when he averaged 4.7 points, and he was able to step that up to 10 points per game overall as a senior.  Calder averaged 14.4 points in Summit League games after Evans was forced out for the 2nd half of the season.

Departure

Andrew Poulter, 6’11” junior

When Poulter signed with the ‘Dons, I was under the impression that Jon Coffman was going to start and play Poulter at the 5.  Poulter was overweight, shot terribly in junior college, was quite slow, and the ‘Dons wanted to go to a new small ball style.  I thought we were going to have to get Coffman checked into some sort of rehab, but instead Poulter hardly got any playing time at IPFW and decided to leave.  Just didn’t seem like the right fit from the beginning.


Oral Roberts

Graduates

Obi Emegano, 6’3″ guard

So I read somewhere that NBA scouts thought that Emegano was a junior and they were not taking his stock into the draft very seriously.  This seems like a really bitter end for the conference scoring champion after a bulk of his teammates leaving Oral Roberts over the last few years, a shoulder injury in the summer, a mid-season concussion, and being surrounded by an incredibly inconsistent youthful squad with zero chemistry.  Though a year from now we could be talking about how the 2016-2017 Summit League scoring champion, Garret Covington, was only a part of 40 wins in his entire collegiate basketball career.

Emegano has potential to be in the NBDL as he appears to be too short to play the shooting guard position in the NBA, nor really enough speed to be in the NBA…but people said the exact same things about Steph Curry.  The loss of Emegano is obviously huge for the Golden Eagles, and they may be classically bad in 2017.

Brandon Conley, 6’6″ forward

The undersized big man suffered through little injuries his entire senior year at Oral Roberts, which led to inconsistent play.  Conley did shoot 56.2% from the field, which was 4th in the Summit League.  His averages of 7.4 points and 5.4 rebounds are something that can be easily made up with Oral Roberts’ youth.  They seem to routinely have a guy that goes from averaging 2 points a game to getting 8 to 10 points each game the following year.

Departures

DaQuan Jeffries, 6’5 freshman

Jeffries looked like a guard that loved playing against faster paced teams like Omaha and IPFW, and he even looked pretty good for what Oral Roberts liked to do…yet he transferred away from the team.  His versatility as being a 6’5″ guard who was actually probably better as a forward made it difficult to figure out where to play him in each and every game.  His 6.7 points per game was going to be 4th among returning players to the team.

Tre Vance, 6’9″ junior

Vance averaged less than one point and one rebound in his time at Oral Roberts.  Not really sure what to say here…  I’ve lost 17 pounds in the last 2 months…I’ve been working out a lot and eating really well.  It’s cool and all, but I have to buy a bunch of new clothes because I look like a little kid wearing a bunch of hand me downs from his big brother.


Western Illinois

I want to say it really couldn’t get any worse for the Leathernecks, but it doesn’t seem like it will get much better.

Graduates

JC Fuller, 6’3″ guard

Fuller started the year off pretty hot, and then his shooting dropped off toward the end of the conference season.  Fuller averaged 12.7 points a game, but I doubt Billy Wright will miss his shot selection.  The Leathernecks won two games in a row over Omaha and Denver when they decided to play freshman De’Angelo Bruster more than Fuller…then they went back to giving more minutes to Fuller and lost 4 of their last 5.

I will still remember Fuller as the guy that was absolutely on fire in the first half at Baxter Arena and talking shit to the Maverick bench, then put his forearm into Kyler Erickson’s chest right in front of a referee to push off to miss a 30 foot jump shot.  Then Fuller went missing the second half and the Mavericks came back from a big deficit to win the game.

Tate Stensgaard 6’9″ forward

I feel like Stensgaard was injured throughout his entire career.  He always appeared as if he was playing with a pulled hamstring.  Stensgaard could hit 15 foot jump shots consistently, and could put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket and draw fouls, he shot 60% from the field and averaged 8.6 points as a senior.  Western Illinois just boggles my mind.

Jalen Chapman, 6’8″ forward

Chapman started at center for the Leathernecks and averaged 17 minutes a game in each of his 2 seasons at Western Illinois.  I’m not really sure where else in the Summit League that he would have averaged 17 minutes a game.

Jamie Batish, 6’4″ guard

Batish was a really good shooter that had his career affected by nagging injuries.  The Leathernecks may have picked up a few more wins with the shooter being able to play more as a senior.


North Dakota State

Graduates

Kory Brown, 6’4″ guard

Brown is going to be hard to make up for the Bison, but they pride themselves on their Next One Up philosophy.  It’s not easy to lose a guy that was a part of 2 NCAA tournament teams and went to the conference championship every year he was a member of the team.  He was second on the team in rebounds and was arguably their best perimeter defender.  Brown was also that guy that you forgot was in the game when they’re down by 10 and then all of a sudden he makes a handful of defensive stops and scores on 4 straight possessions to get the Bison right back in the game.  They may not have that guy that can just create a 10 point swing in 2 minutes completely by himself next season.

Chris Kading, 6’9″ center

Normally, you wouldn’t think the loss of a guy that averaged 3 points and 3 rebounds is a big deal, but it is actually a little bit of a big deal for the Bison to lose Kading.  His senior year was slowed down with surgeries before the start of the season, which is what led to a reduction in playing time, but he was still effective for the Bison on the court with his smart play and defense.

In the game at Baxter Arena, AJ Jacobson couldn’t guard Jake White or Tre’Shawn Thurman and Jacobson got into foul trouble so David Richman called on Kading.  Kading grabbed some big boards, drew some fouls on Jake White, hit a big three in the first half, and helped spark a little run to keep the game close.  Thurman and Randy Reed were both bothered by Kading and couldn’t really score on him.  The second half, Jacobson got more playing time before ultimately fouling out, and the Bison probably could have won that game if Kading was fully healthy and could have gotten 35 minutes.

Departures

Trey Miller, 6’7″ freshman

Miller played 5 minutes for the Bison and just decided to say “eff this” and left the team.

Brian Ishola, 6’5″ sophomore

I’m not sure who Ishola was.  I think he was just a player that EA Sports made up when there weren’t enough players in the game anymore.


IUPUI

The Jaguars are graduating two seniors, but they are going to have the most returning to their roster in 2016.  They also added two senior transfers that will be eligible immediately and could have the most depth in the Summit League in 2016-2017.

Marcellus Barksdale, 6’5″ guard

One of the best perimeter defenders in the Summit League, and Barksdale had to play every position at some point in his career with the Jaguars as they just about didn’t have anyone else on the team in his first 3 years in the program.  If James Gardner had not come along for IUPUI and brought in a bunch of transfers with him, Barksdale may have been a part of 8 wins in his entire year with the IUPUI.

The stats for Barksdale won’t be hard to make up for the Jaguars, but his defensive presence that allowed the Jaguars to start most of their fast breaks may hurt them to a degree.  They really didn’t win games with their amazing offensive efficiency, they won 9 conference games with their scrappy defense that Barksdale was a major catalyst for.

Mason Archie, 6’5″ guard

The Jaguars considered Archie to be their best perimeter defender, yet that seemed like a ploy to have teams forget about Barksdale somehow.  His length may have bothered some of the smaller shooting guards in the league a bit, but it’s not like that is something teams couldn’t overcome.

The Jaguars are going to be the most experienced team in 2016-2017, if that wasn’t the case, I may have said the losses of Barksdale and Archie were more detrimental to the team.  They return 80% of their scoring from their 9-7 team, and are adding two graduate transfers and a transfer from Syracuse to the roster.  They’ll be fine.

 

 

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References from Space Jam to Bill Brasky can only mean one thing, South Dakota is coming to town

Okay, you’re Lebowski, I’m a Lebowski, you’re along I-29, I’m along I-29, you used to be D-2, I used to be D-2, you’ve lost four of your last five, I’ve lost four of my last five, now get on with it.

Ever since joining the Summit League, I have always thought that the UNO Mavericks were on an even plain as the South Dakota Coyotes.  They are both former NCC members, both schools seem to be going after some of the same recruits, they are in the shadow of South Dakota State, and the Mavs kind of are too.  Since joining division one, UNO has gone 3-3 against the Coyotes, they split games in 2012-2013 and 2013-2014, and UNO was able to pick up a come from behind win in Vermillion earlier this season.

Fact, Vermillion is a dumb name for a town.

The Coyotes field a squad that is mostly juniors and seniors on their roster, they have 9 freaking juniors on the roster.  There is not much height to the team, but they do have 6’10” James Hunter who transferred from Pac-12 powerhouse Washington State.  If you have an allegiance to the pacific northwest, you would know that was sarcasm.  With little height on the team, there is not much of a post game for the Coyotes.  UNO posts Mike Rostampour, Tre’Shawn Thurman, and Jake White were able to combine for 29 points, 26 rebounds, and shoot a combined 9-18 from the field in the first meeting between the two teams.  That is not to say that the Coyotes are a terrible rebounding team.  They matched UNO’s 38 rebounds in their game earlier this season, and 6’3″ Tyler Larson averages just under 8 rebounds a game.

Fact, South Dakota fans are weird.

I say these programs have similarities, but their fans confuse me.  I attended last year’s game in Omaha between the two teams.  A decent number of South Dakota fans showed up, which makes sense as they are the closest Summit League school to Omaha, and every fan was the same.  They looked as if they took a break from fixing their tractors, like they came down to Omaha and hit up an Applebee’s before the game, drank too much beer in Ralston Arena, and acted as if the Coyotes were the representing the Tune Land Tune Squad.  Have you ever seen those sketches from Saturday Night Live with Alec Baldwin and John Goodman drinking too much and shouting ridiculous stuff about a magical man named Bill Brasky?  Put South Dakota Coyote shirts on those two characters, and that’s what I saw in these people.  Always talking as if the Caps Lock button is stuck, or like they cannot take the Caps Lock off because there is a drink in that hand.

BRANDON BOS ONCE HIT A THREE POINTER WITH HIS HANDS TIED BEHIND HIS BACK AND HAD TO SHOOT THE BALL WITH HIS NOSE LIKE HE WAS AIR BUD.  TO BRANDON BOS!!!

TYLER LARSON ONCE DUNKED THE BALL SO HARD THAT HE PULLED OFF THE RIM AND HE FLEW OFF THE RIM INTO SUPER MARIO WORLD.  TO TYLER LARSON!!!

CASEY KASPERBAUER CAN HIT A THREE POINTER FROM SO FAR AWAY HE FLEW TO SUPER MARIO WORLD TO SAVE TYLER LARSON AND THEN SHOT A THREE FROM BOWSER’S CASTLE TO VERMILLION TO WIN A GAME OVER SOUTH DAKOTA STATE.  TO CASEY KASPERBAUER!!!

Watch out for characters like this when South Dakota comes to Omaha.
Watch out for characters like this when South Dakota comes to Omaha.

South Dakota takes a lot of threes, and they hit a lot of threes.  Overall they are 4th in the Summit in 3 point field goal percentage, but the numbers have dipped a bit recently and overall they have the 2nd worst field goal percentage in the league.  The game in Vermillion was the first game of the year in which UNO’s opponent hit more 3s than Omaha and Omaha still won the game.  So the post play for UNO is important here, as South Dakota has very little of it.

Much about the threes is the same for Omaha.  The Mavs have shooters, but they have not really put up a lot in a game in the last 5 games.  What do you define as “a lot of threes”?  I would probably say seven.  Seven sounds good.  Seven minute abs.  Seven little dwarfs.  Seven miles an hour.  Seven Costanza.  The Mavs have not hit more than 6 threes since January 14th and 18th.  They also have given up a lot of threes recently, as the perimeter defense seems to be facing a new challenge game after game.  The Mavs have given up 6 or more threes in each of the last 5 games, in fact there has only been one game this season in which the Mavs have given up less than 5 threes.  Yeah, take that Nevada.

These last 6 games for UNO are important.  You do not want to see the Mavs get any worse as they are trying to grow as a program, but with their current record they cannot finish above .500.  If they go 3-3 in their last 6 games they will match their 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 win totals of 11, which 2011-2012 is kind of skewed because the schedule was a mix of D-1, D-2, NAIA, and whatever else is out there.  They only had one win that year against a D-1 opponent, take that Northern Illinois.  Three wins is doable against South Dakota, Oral Roberts, Western Illinois, North Dakota, IUPUI, and IPFW.

These last three home games are the last home games we will see of seniors CJ Carter and Mike Rostampour.  Would you expect them to not go out with a bang?  They both bring it every single game, with the last three home games on the horizon, I cannot imagine them just taking a backseat, like, hey, let the guys that are going to be here next year get some time.  No, no, no, no.

In six career games against South Dakota, CJ Carter has only not made double figures once.  His sophomore season, the Mavs lost 95-72, and Carter only had 4 points.  Overall, in the 6 career games he has averaged 16 points per game and shot 43% from the field.

In three career games against South Dakota, Mike Rostampour has not scored less than 10.  He has averaged 12.6 points per game, 8.7 rebounds, shot 48% from the field, and shot 83% from the line.  Safe to say South Dakota’s front line is no match for Mike Rostampour?

How about Marcus Tyus?  In 5 career games he has shot 55% from the field and scored 11.2 points per game against South Dakota.  Tyus has turned into the most consistent scorer for the Mavs this season.

But does anyone else feel like we are due for a big time performance from Devin Patterson?  I would place a bet on that, but not like Krusty the Klown betting against the Harlem Globetrotters because he thought the Generals were due.

At one time, I thought that Patterson was the best pure point guard in the Summit League.  I still think that, but ever since his ankle injury he has not been the same.  The quickness is not there like it was earlier in the season.  I was told prior to the beginning of the year that he broke his toe and is letting it heal on its own, which may or may not be the best course of action.  Patterson’s game against Marquette of 26 points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists, and 11-12 free throws may be the best performance by a Mav ever considering the stage.  Patterson really is the biggest x-factor for this team.  He and Rostampour added toughness to this squad when they entered the starting lineup in 2013-2014, he may not be the scorer that Carter or Tyus are, but when Patterson runs the offense, and when he does well, the team does well.  I want my Patterson back.  It is just a lot of ground to make up when you take the best point guard in the league, give him an ankle injury, and slow him down given how important he is to the Mavericks.

There are some Omaha ties to this South Dakota team.  I do not have this 100% verified but I am pretty sure Casey Kasperbauer’s brother played at Nebraska and currently lives and works in Omaha, even went to graduate school at UNO.  Kasperbauer is from Carroll, Iowa, which has produced some decent basketball talent in past.  Junior Duol Mayot is a Omaha south grad, he was a great rebounder at the JuCo level, but he really has not gotten a bunch of playing time at South Dakota yet.  There was apparently some interest in Mayot to come to UNO, but I do not think that a scholarship was ever offered.  Freshman Dejon Davis is from Minnesota, an area that UNO likes to recruit out of, and he also had some interest from UNO, but I am also not sure if a scholarship was ever offered by the UNO staff.

Head coach Craig Smith is a former assistant of Nebraska’s Tim Miles, like Tim Miles he is known for improving teams.  He did it at the NAIA level, he was the national NAIA Coach of the Year in 2007, and he also helped Tim Miles improve North Dakota State, Colorado State, and Nebraska.  He gets to Nebraska and recruits, I am not sure how much of an influence he had on it, but at Colorado State they had 4 native Nebraskans on the team when they reached the NCAA tournament.  Along with Mayot, he has Logan Power from Lincoln as a walk on, and he also picked up a commitment from Norfolk’s Tyler Hagedorn, who also held an offer from UNO.  Smith has already led his squad into Omaha once already and almost came up with a win at Creighton, which makes Mav fans happy and mad at the same time.

Given the circumstances this kind of seems like a must win game for the Mavs.

By the way, am I the only one that wants South Dakota-UNO to be a big time rivalry?